Question of the Day Why has reefing exploded in popularity but planted aquariums are lagging behind?

[BigWave]

Chrome crashed on me and I dont really feel like typing it all again LOL.

 

[Immortal1]

Why do you think that is?

Mostly just an opinion based on what I see locally and, in part, what has been stated above. Planted freshwater just does not have the popularity that the saltwater side has. Exactly "why", I don't know. Based on my local friends that have saltwater tanks and all their horror stories, I would think more would jump to the planted freshwater side. Sadly, I have had little luck getting anyone to change their minds.

 

[Art 175]

View attachment 1802
Chrome crashed on me and I dont really feel like typing it all again LOL.

I agree and I think this is THE reason why the hobby isn't more popular. It is just TOO hard to get good plants for newbies, and frankly, for experienced also.

Did you know that Tropica had a deal WAY back when with Axelrod to create a Tropica US nursery? Sadly, it never really materialized...

Well, I will let everyone know, if I win the lottery, I will create a nursery in the US focused on growing and offering the healthiest plants, locally grown. I'm just putting that out into the universe. You're welcome.

 

[Art 175]

Mostly just an opinion based on what I see locally and, in part, what has been stated above. Planted freshwater just does not have the popularity that the saltwater side has. Exactly "why", I don't know. Based on my local friends that have saltwater tanks and all their horror stories, I would think more would jump to the planted freshwater side. Sadly, I have had little luck getting anyone to change their minds.

I agree. For someone that is leaving reefing, the planted side would be the thing to jump to and they would save money.

I made a couple of posts about freshwater planted over at Reef2Reef that people have liked but only a couple have actually jumped over here.

 

[JPog]

Yet soccer is one of the most played sports in high school. Similar to freshwater tanks in the US. It is WAY more than saltwater but there is never a "conversion" or evolution from a freshwater aquarium to a freshwater planted aquarium. I've been after the "why" for years without a satisfactory answer.

I still stick with culture here. Even though soccer is very popular in school, I think it fills a void between baseball and football. Many kids find baseball too slow/boring and many parents don't want their kids playing football (too dangerous.)

I could tell you I was very involved in my kid's soccer during school and the parents and kids rarely talked about soccer off the field other than maybe the World Cup. They did always talk about watching football or baseball. People just don't get excited or appreciate the ball being moved around the pitch, but they do get excited over a long pass or run in football.

 

[JPog]

This is why ADA came out very early on with a simple to set up, complete kit.
View attachment 1801 It is sold as part of your initial set up so a beginner starts using CO2 right from day 1. Do we have something similar with brands available in our hobby?

Cost is a barrier to entry, although many jump into reef aquariums and invest well over $3,000 to start in the US. But, if a beginner is starting with a 10 or 20 gallon, do they need a full regulator with 5 or 10 pound cylinder or would it be better to purchase a kit like the above initially?

ADA had the right idea, because that kit took away the intimidating factor of having an industrial looking co2 cylinder in your home. But it wouldn't have been available in most LFS, was very expensive and only really feasible for smaller tanks. Co2 to me is still a major issue as others have stated. I know Amano knew he couldn't have a tank the way he wanted it to look, without the co2 component. We don't think twice about having a big cylinder in our homes, traveling somewhere like a fire extinguisher store to get it refilled, but that process will never be mainstream. And especially not for a bunch of plants and $3 fish. If you made the investment in $30-$100 fish for saltwater, people will spend more for equipment/supplies.

 

[BryceM]

Art et al,

I was thinking about this yesterday. The popularity of many obscure hobbies has exploded when movie stars, politicians, or other "influencers" are seen participating in them. We're small enough than even a small bit of exposure like that could have enormous results.

 

[Art 175]

We don't think twice about having a big cylinder in our homes, traveling somewhere like a fire extinguisher store to get it refilled, but that process will never be mainstream. And especially not for a bunch of plants and $3 fish. If you made the investment in $30-$100 fish for saltwater, people will spend more for equipment/supplies.

I think this is a really good point. If your investment in the hobby is higher, you tend to be willing to spend more on it overall to make sure it's successful.

With this logic though, the more expensive fish, plants and hardscape becomes, the more people will get into the hobby and stay in the hobby? Seems counterintuitive but there is something that sticks people to the more expensive reefing. It's hard to figure out because reefing takes such dedication and time to get the aquarium to what you envision with corals. We can get there MUCH quicker with plants + CO2.

 

[Art 175]

We're small enough than even a small bit of exposure like that could have enormous results.

The Ted Lasso or Wrexham effect? I agree! Unfortunately, I've yet to find any celebrity, politician or even significant "influencer" in our hobby. Nothing in our hobby has gone viral on social media.

What Green Aqua is doing on YouTube (540,000 subscribers) is getting close to being an influencer. Similar to what Bulk Reef Supply (282,000 subscribers) did on the reefing side. There is potential there, in the US, but no one is willing to spend the $$ necessary to build the market in the US. Frustrating, really.

We have one of the largest aquatic plant nurseries in the world, Florida Aquatic Nursery. In my backyard. However, they have never done very much to grow the aquarium plant market in the US.

We also have large, US-based companies like Seachem and Brightwell. They have developed products for the freshwater market but they do very little to grow the market. From my vantage point, they are happy to sell, quietly, to the LFS and big box stores. Letting the retailer take on the challenge of growth. Not going to happen.

I would like to see companies like Seachem not only continuing to support the AGA but also putting ads into hobby magazines like TFH but also into home design, architecture and home and garden magazines. Get a PR spokesman out into social media kicking up interest for planted aquariums. Bring real $$ to the big shows like Chicago's Aquatic Experience and others.

Heck, YouTube Millionaire Influencer, Graham Stephan is a huge reefing nut. BRS TV and Worldwide Corals and others have done YouTube pieces with him on the hobby. He even did several videos showing off his amazing tank to his 4.4 million subscribers.




Seachem or Brightwell or even Aquarium Design Group should find an influencer and turn them into a plant head. Give them everything and turn them loose on social media.

 

[qwedfg]

I know this is an older thread but from my perspective reefing in some ways is more straight forward. The basic idea of husbandry is to keep nutrients as low as you can (until recently I guess there are some new trends in the hobby from what I gather) and keep your alk stable. These are well defined goal that are simple to test for. Keep your tank clean do water changes, buy a skimmer, an auto doser, some test kits and maybe some gfo. While expensive I found the information easy to find and implement as far as the steps to keep a successful tank.

Since getting into planted tanks seriously for the first time about a year and a half ago I find the steps to keeping a successful Dutch style aquarium ala Greggz a lot more confusing. There are far more approaches to nutrient dosing , many of which don’t tell you what you are dosing. The idea of removing nutrients is a lot easier to manage I find then adding them when it comes to problem solving. You have algae in a reef tank…it’s probably from nutrients being too high and there are definitive and well established steps to fix the problem. Your sps are bleaching …. Probably something to do with alk swings.

When it comes to problems with plants and algae fixing it has been a lot more problem solving than I did in reefs. I feel like the problems with plants that cause stunting and slow growth can be numerous and often difficult or impossible to test for. CO2 being the most touchy to deal with since it lacks a fool proof way to make sure you have the right amount beyond having experience and knowing how your plants are responding. There are so many parameters to balance between macros, micros, co2 and light it can be tough to trouble shoot.

Maybe this is just due to being new with planted tanks and spending nearly two decades keeping reefs but I never had as many persistant issues when keeping even sps reefs as I’ve had with my planted tank.

 

[RickyV]

I think part of it is that the average low tech planted tank most people would see don't look as nice as an average reef tank. When I have guests over they are far more impressed and captivated by my easy, low maintenance LPS/softy reef tank. My 350 gallon high tech, high maintenance tank doesn't get the same response.

 

[qwedfg]

I think part of it is that the average low tech planted tank most people would see don't look as nice as an average reef tank. When I have guests over they are far more impressed and captivated by my easy, low maintenance LPS/softy reef tank. My 350 gallon high tech, high maintenance tank doesn't get the same response.

I agree to someone who isn’t involved in the hobby a reasonable reef will impress them far more than a very nice planted tank in some cases but to me I find that only the nicest reefs will impress me more than a nice planted tank.

One thing I’ve found over 20 years of poking around the various reef forums and being involved in the local club is that 80 percent of reefs appear dirty and poorly put together. The large amount of equipment in the tank takes away from the immersion of a naturalistic aqua scape and often reefers are not very concerned with the particulars of the aqua scape they will just stack rocks to the top of the aquarium.

Far more of the planted tanks I see on the forums impress me and appear far cleaner, more natural and healthier than the appearance of the average reef tank.

Sadly there is no local club that I’ve found in my area and there are only a few forums I’ve found (like this one) where you can even find serious hobbyists in the same way you find serious hobbyists on reef forums. Locally you can buy any coral you can imagine for less than half of what you would pay in a store as well as tanks, pumps, skimmers and lights at a huge discount within an hours drive at most via the reef club. Plants and planted tank equipment are far harder to come by I’ve found.

 

[Dennis Wong 4]

Planted tanks are quite popular in Asia now. The real turn about came around year 2000ish when China manufacturing came online and provided cheap CO2 and light equipment. In earlier years (in Asia), my memory was that only a few western brands provided CO2 systems at very high cost (about 2 to 4 months of average Indonesia wages for example), so the hobby did not take off in the region until cheaper equipment was available. I don't think that cost alone is a big barrier nowadays.

ADA had quite a big influence, having visited Japan many times myself, the planted hobby is pretty popular there. I think for ADA, Japan itself makes up 50% of their revenue as a size comparison to rest of the world. However, they already had cultural elements in place - gardening/bonsai/rock appreciation etc that made them like planted aquariums. They also have the discipline and money to run CO2 injected planted setups - which one can see in quite a few public areas.

I blame the whole walstad rubbish approach for a lot of the poor mindset in the hobby - that non CO2 injected tanks are more natural, and that if it is natural, then one should not expect to have CO2 injection in order to grow plants/have a nice tank. It is one of the biggest barriers to improvement in the hobby that is based on a very flawed premise and survivorship bias. Unfortunately, this concept is super popular in the states. Running a tank 'naturally' seems to carry some virtual signaling weight there, along with weird ideas like 'I don't need to use chemicals in my tank' and 'my tank is an ecosystem so no water changes are needed'.

 

[Art 175]

I know this is an older thread but from my perspective reefing in some ways is more straight forward. The basic idea of husbandry is to keep nutrients as low as you can (until recently I guess there are some new trends in the hobby from what I gather) and keep your alk stable. These are well defined goal that are simple to test for. Keep your tank clean do water changes, buy a skimmer, an auto doser, some test kits and maybe some gfo. While expensive I found the information easy to find and implement as far as the steps to keep a successful tank.

Since getting into planted tanks seriously for the first time about a year and a half ago I find the steps to keeping a successful Dutch style aquarium ala Greggz a lot more confusing. There are far more approaches to nutrient dosing , many of which don’t tell you what you are dosing. The idea of removing nutrients is a lot easier to manage I find then adding them when it comes to problem solving. You have algae in a reef tank…it’s probably from nutrients being too high and there are definitive and well established steps to fix the problem. Your sps are bleaching …. Probably something to do with alk swings.

When it comes to problems with plants and algae fixing it has been a lot more problem solving than I did in reefs. I feel like the problems with plants that cause stunting and slow growth can be numerous and often difficult or impossible to test for. CO2 being the most touchy to deal with since it lacks a fool proof way to make sure you have the right amount beyond having experience and knowing how your plants are responding. There are so many parameters to balance between macros, micros, co2 and light it can be tough to trouble shoot.

Maybe this is just due to being new with planted tanks and spending nearly two decades keeping reefs but I never had as many persistant issues when keeping even sps reefs as I’ve had with my planted tank.

This is an interesting take. Thanks for sharing.

My experience is different, perhaps opposite, to yours. I have a long history with freshwater and, specifically, planted tanks. It has become my comfort zone. However, over my 30+ years of doing freshwater, things have become boring a couple of times. During those times, I switched to reef tanks.

While doing the research on how to keep a healthy reef, everything seemed very well defined. Something is off, it appeared to me to be relatively easy to identify and correct. There is more science with answers in the reefing side. Less "art" to managing the tank. Or, so I thought.

Both of my escapades into the reefing hobby have resulted in failed tanks. My last attempt was surprising as I threw a LOT of money into equipment for it. I learned that money doesn't buy success.

My experience was that growth of corals was MUCH slower than plants. Any correction in the tank required a month to see if it was working or not. In the meantime, the parade of pests that I would get was impressive. The live rock would take turns going from brown, to green, to golden brown, and start again. I think they call it the "ugly stage" of reef tanks but it usually takes a year to get past.

In the end, the constant making of saltwater, having to store it, plus the constant pest battles with very little to show for it in terms of growth. I threw in the towel and went back to my comfort zone of plants. I know what I'm doing there.

A long rambling to say that I think your experience with the saltwater side makes it seem easier than the planted tank. Many saltwater converts also feel like you do. I think it may help to stop thinking about numbers (common on the reef side) and think in terms of "enough". For example, am I adding enough fertilizer, light, CO2?

Having enough of the above plus weekly water changes is 90+% of how success is reached with planted tanks. I think it's easier than reefs.

 

[Art 175]

I agree to someone who isn’t involved in the hobby a reasonable reef will impress them far more than a very nice planted tank in some cases but to me I find that only the nicest reefs will impress me more than a nice planted tank.

One thing I’ve found over 20 years of poking around the various reef forums and being involved in the local club is that 80 percent of reefs appear dirty and poorly put together. The large amount of equipment in the tank takes away from the immersion of a naturalistic aqua scape and often reefers are not very concerned with the particulars of the aqua scape they will just stack rocks to the top of the aquarium.

Far more of the planted tanks I see on the forums impress me and appear far cleaner, more natural and healthier than the appearance of the average reef tank.

Sadly there is no local club that I’ve found in my area and there are only a few forums I’ve found (like this one) where you can even find serious hobbyists in the same way you find serious hobbyists on reef forums. Locally you can buy any coral you can imagine for less than half of what you would pay in a store as well as tanks, pumps, skimmers and lights at a huge discount within an hours drive at most via the reef club. Plants and planted tank equipment are far harder to come by I’ve found.

You guys are bringing up a couple of good points here:

1. Average saltwater tank has more color and activity than the average planted tank that is likely low-tech. The conclusion here is that, therefore, people are more drawn to saltwater than freshwater planted.
2. There are far fewer local planted aquarium clubs and plants/equipment is MUCH harder to find locally. The conclusion here is that local clubs and greater equipment availability makes saltwater far more visible to anyone wanting to set up their first aquarium.

As for online forums, Reef2Reef is, by far, the largest and most active saltwater forum. I'm modeling ScapeCrunch after R2R because their community is thriving and gives so much value to its members. Bulk Reef Supply (and BRSTV), along with R2R, are exponentially grown the reef hobby to be THE preferred aquarium style, at least in the US.

My question to you is, if 1 and 2 above are true, how do we change that?

 

[Art 175]

ADA had quite a big influence, having visited Japan many times myself, the planted hobby is pretty popular there. I think for ADA, Japan itself makes up 50% of their revenue as a size comparison to rest of the world. However, they already had cultural elements in place - gardening/bonsai/rock appreciation etc that made them like planted aquariums. They also have the discipline and money to run CO2 injected planted setups - which one can see in quite a few public areas.

Thanks @Dennis Wong. To me, you stated a few things that I too think have impacted the popularity of planted aquariums, especially in Asia.

1. Cost - price that is reasonable for the average worker is an important factor. Premium pricing will shrink the market that can purchase equipment for a hobby. Therefore, the influx of lower-priced equipment with good quality has expanded the number of potential new hobbyists. I think this is SLOWLY getting to the US.
2. Influencer - ADA did a HUGE amount of promotion in Japan, especially in the beginning. Books, magazines, TV appearances, training and supporting LFSs to carry their products, and, of course, Amano's photography. ADA also always pushed high-tech setups that increases the likelihood of success, along with a step-by-step guide for beginners.
3. Culture - having a culture that values gardening with its philosophical aspects included, makes for a market that will quickly recognize the benefits of aquatic gardening and be willing to try it.

Running a tank 'naturally' seems to carry some virtual signaling weight there, along with weird ideas like 'I don't need to use chemicals in my tank' and 'my tank is an ecosystem so no water changes are needed'.

I think Diana's book did a lot for the thinking that "natural" means that high-tech and supplements are bad. I don't have a problem with Diana's conclusions, but I think it leads to more tanks merely "surviving" and not "thriving". Certainly, plant color and variety is much easier to obtain with a high-tech tank.

There is a culture of DIY in the US that sometimes creates a distrust of equipment manufacturers. Why buy from someone else when I can make it myself for 1/3 the cost? When I started the hobby, this was rampant so you saw a lot of people with yeast CO2, kitty litter substrate, homemade Power Sand, etc.

Now, I don't mean being cost conscious is a bad thing. It's not. And, sometimes, it is better to DIY. For example, when you have to fertilize a large tank, it is much more economical to roll your own fertilizer.

I think a balance is needed where equipment manufacturers and retailers are supported by the hobby community. DIY would supplement when called for but it should be the default. At least for people getting into the hobby.

My question is: why is this a problem with planted aquariums and not reef aquariums? It appears to me that a reefer is MUCH more willing to spend their money on equipment and supplements than is a planted aquarium hobbyist.

BTW, we need to come up with a better name for ourselves. The salt side has "reefers". What are we? Planters?

 

[qwedfg]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am going to speak from my perspective as a noob planted tank keeper but an experienced reefer.

1) I think there is a lack of awareness about planted tanks in the US. My first attempt at a planted tank started off 11 years ago when my future wife bought me a Betta fish randomly. As I was researching what to do with the thing I came across planted tank forums and was surprised what people were doing with plants and this was after being in the reef hobby for about 10 years at that point. On the local reef forums a guy recently posted his planted 75 gallon tank and people were surprised that a planted tank could be so nice looking.

2) In my region there were not any good lfs until about 5 years ago yet reefing was a very popular hobby facilitated by the local reef club and online forums. New people to reefing find their way to the club and there are surprising numbers of new members posting. This is a common theme across reef forums where there is no shortage of advice (good and bad sometimes) for new reefers. It seems a lot harder to get a straight answer (or maybe straight answers are harder to come by) when on planted tank forums. During my time reefing I rarely if ever bought coral off of anyone but fellow hobbyists and it gives you a feeling of community (and very good deals) where you can post, meet local people and talk shop which definitely increases recruitment and retains people more easily.

Planted tanks in my region are more of a singular experience since I don’t know anyone else who keeps planted tanks or shrimp while I know many who keep a reef.

3) From my observations of the local lfs it appears to me that there is a lot of money and people interested in freshwater aquariums but not planted aquariums. The “good” lfs I spoke of earlier dedicated a huge amount of space to stocking a wide variety of freshwater fish, probably 3x more than it dedicates to saltwater fish. But it seems that freshwater fish keepers are not serious hobbyists for the most part and are content with keeping some fish, some hardscape and maybe a crypt or anubias or two and doing their monthly water change. When these people make a transition to becoming more serious about the aquarium hobby it seems they always transition to keep a reef tank versus getting co2 and more difficult plants.

This is reflected on the other side of the lfs that houses the coral and plants. They have dedicated 10s of thousands of dollars to keeping huge frag tanks with hundreds of frags while their plant selection is a few sad looking stem plants and crypts. I’m not even sure they use co2. This lfs makes a huge portion of their revenue from doing tank installation and maintenance and are certainly well versed in keeping planted aquariums as I’ve seen some pictures of tanks they set up but there doesn’t seem to be enough interest to invest more money in having a nice plant selection. I think this comes back to awareness that there is another side to the freshwater world which is as fun and challenging as a reef tank in many ways.

4) Art I agree with you that there are many challenges to a reef tank and they often end in disaster for newer hobbyists. When a reef goes bad you can lose a big investment (especially sps) over night while plants tend to just get covered in algae and stunt but can be recovered if the correct parameters are provided. I do still hold that the steps to success are better defined and more straight forward than a planted tank.

When people are learning something new I feel like they want a number they can test for and know how they are doing versus the “art” of a planted tank which can be very enigmatic for a simple minded guy like me. While reefs are less forgiving you have a specific target which you are shooting for and if you fail you have a good idea of what went wrong. In some ways that is less frustrating than the fighting algae in a planted tank and trying 10 different things of which none work.

As far as maintenance is concerned there are pros and cons to both. Planted tanks are higher maintenance in many ways compared to a reef. While making salt is a pain you can keep a months worth of water change water in a container as water changes are typically done less often and are certainly smaller in volume than those required for ei dosing schemes. In addition because of the slower growth of coral you rarely need to “trim” which can be a major labor each week in a fast growing tank with stems.

I think you are doing a good job with this forum and it’s a step in the right direction. One of the things reefing has over planted tanks is a major online presence of serious hobbyists on forums who interact and help bring new people along. This will go a long go way to growing the hobby. But I do think there needs to be a top down approach where a company takes the lead and promotes the hobby like ada did in Japan for it to grow in the US. There doesn’t seem to be any push here by large companies to increase the popularity of the hobby and it makes it tough to gain traction as reefing has a huge foothold on “serious” hobbyists with many different companies promoting reefing and producing new products which created excitement and interest.

 

[Count Krunk]

The best lfs closest to me simply will not carry plants. I asked why and they said there’s no profit in it for them. Yet as mentioned they carry a lot of fw fish.

Reefs have the wow factor for people. People will travel 7000 miles to go scuba diving. More people just know that reefs are a thing, especially with global warming.

Once people look up reefs, they will quickly find reef tanks. A reef in your living room. It’s very appealing.

You can have a very successful soft coral and LPS coral tank with a strong light, a hob filter, heaters, and powerheads. Add weekly water change, thats it. No dosing, just mix water, change water.

People simply do not think of these beautiful planted aquariums when they think freshwater. There isnt coverage about fw ecosystems like there is for reefs and oceans. They think goldfish, pond, koi.

And like others have said, that leads a lot of fw people to basically being the fw version of FOWLRs. Reefing, is all about the reef. These days, it’salmost only acceptable to have a FOWLR if its because the fish inside it would eat all the coral.

Aa far as forums, i would be hesitant to model on r2r. Their number one priority is $$$$$$. They will censor heavily anything that challenges that or Rev’s views. www.Humble.fish is the current best reef forum, imo.

 

[Art 175]

It's clear to me that the US needs a well-funded company to champion planted aquariums much like ADA did in Japan. Ideally, we would have an influencer like Amano that becomes the face of the hobby and can bring in non-hobbyists. As it stands, I don't see any company wanting to do this, I think, because of the age old chicken and egg situation. No one wants to invest because currently there is no market for plants. However, there is no market for plants because no one wants to invest.

Well, if I win the big Powerball lottery, my friends, I will be investing. I promise you that.

Aa far as forums, i would be hesitant to model on r2r. Their number one priority is $$$$$$. They will censor heavily anything that challenges that or Rev’s views. www.Humble.fish is the current best reef forum, imo.

I hear you on this. I run this forum as open as possible without censorship. Of course, everything within reason. R2R does a lot of things right but it has lately taken positions that alienate many. The perception that the forum is governed by the administrator's personal views and beliefs is unfortunate and sad. Ironically, R2R became popular because Reef Central was deemed to be doing exactly what R2R is doing now.

Like everything, $$$ is necessary to keep the lights on, bring new and valuable things to the community, and to grow. However, it should never be the number one priority. The community is the number one priority and all decisions should revolve around supporting, growing and bringing value to the community.

Ideally, we can have a forum that takes the best from R2R and HumbleFish and continues to grow the planted aquarium community. That's what I'm striving for.

 

[Yugang]

as open as possible without censorship

$$$ is necessary to keep the lights on, bring new and valuable things to the community, and to grow. However, it should never be the number one priority

The community is the number one priority and all decisions should revolve around supporting, growing and bringing value to the community

and indeed avoid

The perception that the forum is governed by the administrator's personal views and beliefs is unfortunate and sad

Your message is very relevant @Art, and I am so happy that you identified the need for this forum. I can't comment too much on planted tanks in the US, but believe that a good forum as ScapeCrunch will be an important part of the solution, and will inspire a lot of interest.

I find this thread extremely interesting, and one reason is that I start to understand how different parts of the world may have different reasons for setting up a tank, and especially how they do it, and how big they do it. In Hong Kong, like many Asian urban communities, we have little space at home and very few can afford their own garden. The tank may be (very) small and detailed for American standards, brings a bit of 'nature' in the home without asking too many very expensive square feet in our appartments. Then, with comparatively good infrastructure and supply chains it is easy and cheap to build and maintain a tank - in 20 min I can visit my favourite specialised plant shop where I can buy any bunch of plants for perhaps 3 USD. The US seems a totally different environment for the hobby, and the budget for the tank may be competing with the upgrade for a lawnmower. Europe, IMO, seems to be in-between the Asia and North America situation.