Help When do you start to crank up the light on a newly set up tank?

[Beza]

Soo...my new tank has been going for about three weeks now. I do have a little bit of algae here and there, but nothing over the top (so far). Plants are doing well, nothing has melted yet, apart from some older leaves. As I have a cleaning crew in form of some snails (Ramshorn, Theodoxus and Bladdersnails) and a few shrimp in there I currently do like a 10% waterchange most days, to get rid of what the crew leaves behind plus removing a little bit of algae.

My tank does get some direct light at times (sunset), as it sits opposite a west facing window, and I noticed that when that happens the plants start to pearl like crazy. They do pearl before as well, but by no means as strongly.

The light is a Chihiros A II, and it is set to 70% currently, going for 7h and 1h ramp up/down time. So have a bit of room to turn it up. I think I am happy with the duration for now, but maybe twiddling with the intensity would be good. The question then is - do you wait for your tank to be (mostly) algae free before increasing light intensity, or do you simply go by "it's been two weeks, time to turn it up a notch"?

I was also thinking to maybe only increase the light intensity only for a few hours, around the time the plants pearl most strongly already.

What do the pros here say?

 

[Minorhero]

So a few things.

But first, the answer to your question is you put in the correct light intensity and duration as soon as you plant. The plants don't 'grow' into a higher light intensity, they need that intensity right away and then later on they might need to be trimmed if they are overshadowing their neighbors etc.

So why are you getting algae?

Well probably because of the direct sunlight but possibly also due to water changes/maintenance. If this is a tank with aquasoil type substrate, chances are you were supposed to be doing 50% water changes every day in the first week, every other in the second week, 3 times in week 3 and twice and week 4. And then thereafter once a week. If this is not an aquasoil type substrate tank, then you can skip those extra water changes and regular 50+% water change once a week is fine.

Regarding the sunlight. Get yourself a par meter or download the free photone app. For that one follow the directions on a diffuser and take a reading the same distance from your light as the light is from the substrate. That will tell you how much light your tank is getting. Now the next time the tank is getting direct sunlight, go ahead and measure how much sunlight the tank is getting. You will find that the amount is massive. A typical high light tank gets somewhere between 50 and 150 ppfd at substrate. Whereas the sun through a window will produce about 1600 ppfd. Depending on how low on the horizon the sun is when hitting your tank that might only be a few hundred ppfd, but still, that's a LOT more than what we typically want.

Regarding duration... it might be fine, it might be inadequate. Its really hard to tell with 2 hours of your 8 hour photo-period being something less then what you actually want the plants to be getting. I personally don't do long ramp up and down periods for this reason. 10 minutes or less ramp up/down is fine and frankly I typically prefer under a minute or none.

Hopefully that helps. Good luck!

 

[Beza]

Thank you for the input!

I forgot to add that I do not use soil but inert substrate, and I've added some ferts in between to make up for the water changes. Also the ramp up and down is 30 mins each, so 1h in total - sorry, I didn't write that very clearly I guess. I'd like to keep that for the animals mainly, especially since the light turns off late at night. Though the ramp up could easily be shorter I guess, since the room is bright anyhow at that time.

The algae started growing well before I started the small water changes, I am simply assuming that is due to the tank being new. I did do about 5 weeks of dark start though, mainly to get biofilm growing before the algae can get in, and to have food available for the inhabitants. Having the tank cycled is a nice bonus, too. Most of the algae I can see are on the plants, apart from some GDA on the glass and foreground substrate (which is certainly due to the extra light).

I do have the photon app already, but measuring it won't tell me much I don't know already. I do pull down the window blinds most days in the afternoon to block the sun, but some amount of daylight will hit the tank no matter what.

So do I get you right that there shouldn't be any algae at all at this stage? From what I read having some in a tank this new is to be expected - my question is not really how to get rid of them right now, but more if I should try to give my plants more light now or rather wait until the algae recede.

 

[CincyScaper]

The answer depends on what your wishes and goals are.
Why do you think you would need more light ? if your thought is that the growth is inadequate and you would like more faster growth more intense color then yes giving more light would be helpful. In order to prevent adaptative stress (i.e the plants reprogramming to accomadate the higher light), it would be advisable to keep the conditions stable which would make one argue that going high on the light at the beginning would make most sense. Dennis Wong's posts and tanks all talk about this.

That said, practically you already have sunlight issues, some algae (we don't know what type of algae, brownish diatom phase will go away on its own) are common in this phase but if you are already dealing with hair algae I would anticipate increase in your light would cause this to bloom more.

If this was my tank, i would ensure that my tanks are stable for 3 months or so and then if i am still not happy with the growth then slowly ramp up the light over many weeks (adjusting other parameters such as nutrition and co2 accordinly)

Sunlight is an issue, my tank gets lot of direct morning sunlight. In Fall and winter this is not a major issue but in spring and summer i am anticipating more algae issues and i have already started having some more algae.

Last but not the least, do you use Co2? this might be a more meaningful way of increasing growth than increasing light.

 

[Koan]

I'd like to keep that for the animals mainly

Fish and shrimps definitely appreciate ramp up and ramp down

do I get you right that there shouldn't be any algae at all at this stage

Some algae at 3 weeks is totally normal your tank is definitely still just starting up.

How to stabilize a new planted tank

New planted aquariums that are not yet biologically matured present a volatile environment for plants and inhabitants. Accelerate the biological maturity of the tank by adding seed bacteria from matured filters or substrate. More large water changes remove organic detritus and algae spores.

www.2hraquarist.com

It can be hard to wait but giving your take another month or two to settle in at this light level is fine. If you want to raise the light you can, I would do it a little at a time, watch it for a week or two and see what happens.

There's definitely no downside to giving your plants plenty of time to root in and get used to the CO2 levels and fertilizer levels you are using.

Once it has been up and really robust for several months, the sunlight should be less of an issue. Lots of tanks get direct sunlight without algae issues, if they are otherwise stable and full of healthy growing plants.

 

[Beza]

@CincyScaper So far I am seeing a mix of some diatoms (which my cleaning crew loves), some GDA and a little hair algae on a few spots. I can still get away with removing the hair algae every so often, my hope is that it will eventually give up. The GDA isn't too much, mainly on the front glas which I could easily clean, but I'm actually leaving it for the snails - as much as I am tempted to clean it up at times. But the Theodoxus snails are said to be picky eaters, which won't take any artificial food, but are said to be really good at glas cleaning. So I am leaving it to them, for now.

I mainly thought more light might be good because I saw the strong reaction of my plants to some direct sunlight, so my thinking is if they can photosynthesize more, that would make life actually harder for the algae - no? And yes, there is a CO2 system, though I am running at a low level of about 15 mg/l due to a) not having RO water and b) using plants who are not known to need very high levels of CO2.

It is a nature style setup, not a grow-as-fast-as-you-can crazy plant setup

@Koan Thank you, that sounds quite good - I think I'll try just a few hours of more light (like 4h of 80% instead of 70% during the cycle) and see who grows more - the plants or the algae. Worst case I dial it down again, and I'll make extra sure the sun doesn't hit the tank directly. Luckily I got external blinds on that window.

I am hoping I'll get to that mythical stage of a well running tank which isn't overly sensitive to some changes anymore. It feels like a lofty goal since I haven't tried that before, but you gotta start eventually.

 

[CincyScaper]

It is a nature style setup, not a grow-as-fast-as-you-can crazy plant setup

Great, now this gives us a good idea of what you are going for.
Tom Barr in one of his talks said that light is like an accelerator (intensity/duration) for the entire set up, and you would need to match everything else to accommodate this.

Yes, you would get more growth with more light (intensity/duration) and outcompete algae faster but it would also need other things to happen with the acceleration (more nutrition, more co2, more horticulture - like Dennis mentions). Since fast growth and challenging plants are not your goal, stepping off the accelerator and embracing the lower light would help you reach and maintain stability.

Diatoms is a phase as you mentioned and GSA is part of normal aquarium but hairalgae can indicate system instability. I would aim for higher Co2 close to 30 ppm and more importantly ensure that it stays stable during the photoperiod. @Dennis Wong and @Naturescapes_Rocco have both written quite a bit about getting Co2 stability and measuring it using Hanna co2 checker. This might help your hair algae issue and would definitely result in more pearling. You can test this by exposing your plant to air by draining the water during the photo period and refilling, since they would absorb atmospheric Co2; they would pearl really well. As long as you ensure your livestock is safe and have stable co2 levels, higher co2 level (~30 ppm) will not harm in anyways.

 

[Minorhero]

If you have the photone app already, then yes, please post the numbers.

Why?

Well we are speaking in generalities which is one reason why you are getting a mix of opinions here. Maybe your light cycle is perfect. Maybe you have 10 ppfd at substrate and a tank full of high light stems. You might know whats going on but we definitely do not. While we are talking about it, a full tank picture would be very helpful as well so we can see what we are dealing with.

As for whether algae is normal.... well since you are getting GDA and hair algae at the 3 week mark... no no it is not. A perfectly balanced tank can go its entire life without noticeable amounts of GDA or hair algae. Its pretty hard to have one be perfectly balanced, but certainly any noticeable algae (outside of some diatoms) in the first 3 months is typically a very bad sign. I usually call the first 3 months of a tank the 'honeymoon period' because essentially it should be on cruise control with nothing going wrong.

In the aquarium culture you will hear about people using the term "ugly stage" or complaining about algae in a new aquarium. Those are typically saltwater issues and not something that's part of the freshwater hobby. For us, more mature tanks tend to be the ones with algae issues as our plants outgrow their locations/available nutrients and we are forced to adjust our maintenance.

Anyway... that's tangential because your original question is should you adjust your lights to a higher intensity. To which it comes back to....maybe? It depends on what your current ppfd at substrate is and what plants you are growing.

 

[Beza]

I would aim for higher Co2 close to 30 ppm and more importantly ensure that it stays stable during the photoperiod.

I have intentionally aimed for this level of CO2, as it was recommended to me for the style of setup I am running. So I built a Yugang open reactor, which does its job nicely, but that also means I can not easily increase the level of CO2 being applied, nor do I see the need for it really. Yes I know that highly planted tanks, especially with demanding stem plants, generally run at least 30 mg/l, but again that is not what I am doing here. My plants are a mix of slow to medium fast growers, intentionally chosen that way since long term I do not want to be forced to cut stuff back every week.

Yes, you would get more growth with more light (intensity/duration) and outcompete algae faster but it would also need other things to happen with the acceleration (more nutrition, more co2, more horticulture - like Dennis mentions

Here is the thing though - by chance I get to see how my plants react to more light, and I see them pearl a lot more than before. That should mean there is enough CO2 and nutrients available for them to step up their activity that much, and light seems to be the limiting factor at that point. If it wasn't for the much increased pearling I wouldn't have considered increasing the light. Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption please.

As for whether algae is normal.... well since you are getting GDA and hair algae at the 3 week mark... no no it is not. A perfectly balanced tank can go its entire life without noticeable amounts of GDA or hair algae. Its pretty hard to have one be perfectly balanced, but certainly any noticeable algae (outside of some diatoms) in the first 3 months is typically a very bad sign. I usually call the first 3 months of a tank the 'honeymoon period' because essentially it should be on cruise control with nothing going wrong.

I think you are the very first person to say that having any algae in a new tank is not normal, and that a tank should be perfectly balanced from day one. At least from what I have read over the last several months in preparation for setting up this tank. So please forgive me when I say I am extremely sceptical hearing that. What I have read, time and again, is that some algae early on are quite normal, and that it takes quite some time for a tank to really mature. Maybe the pros can start a tank running on soil and with demanding plants spotless from day one, but I am not using soil, nor am I a pro.

Thank you for your input though.

 

[CincyScaper]

I see your point about the co2 at 15 ppm, it is definitely better than not doing co2. As long as it is stable and not fluctuating a lot.
More light needs to be matched with more co2/nutrition. More co2 does not need to be matched with more light. Acceleration vs efficiency.
No matter what you try it would be a good learning experience so let us know how it goes.

 

[Minorhero]

I think you are the very first person to say that having any algae in a new tank is not normal, and that a tank should be perfectly balanced from day one. At least from what I have read over the last several months in preparation for setting up this tank. So please forgive me when I say I am extremely sceptical hearing that. What I have read, time and again, is that some algae early on are quite normal, and that it takes quite some time for a tank to really mature. Maybe the pros can start a tank running on soil and with demanding plants spotless from day one, but I am not using soil, nor am I a pro.

Thank you for your input though.

Ideally a tank would never get algae. But diatoms can be unavoidable depending on water/substrate. Or at least I haven't figured out how to avoid them. Who exactly has told you that other types of algae in quantity (as opposed to so small you have to press your face to the glass to see it) is normal and to be expected? I would be interested in seeing how their tanks look.

At any rate, if you are getting enough algae at this stage to notice it... yeah that's not going to improve over time. That's going to get worse. Again a full tank shot and the ppfd at substrate will help a lot in diagnosing it. It seems you are reluctant to share that though so I wish you luck.

 

[GreggZ]

I think you are the very first person to say that having any algae in a new tank is not normal, and that a tank should be perfectly balanced from day one. At least from what I have read over the last several months in preparation for setting up this tank. So please forgive me when I say I am extremely sceptical hearing that. What I have read, time and again, is that some algae early on are quite normal, and that it takes quite some time for a tank to really mature. Maybe the pros can start a tank running on soil and with demanding plants spotless from day one, but I am not using soil, nor am I a pro.

I've been around a pretty long time and it's the first time I have heard anyone say that as well.

Most all new tanks go through some algae phase. It actually gets better as the tank matures.

And here's a little secret for you. Even the best mature tanks you see deal with algae at some point. A perfectly balanced tank is a nice goal but I know of very few. Even the best trim off old growth with some algae on it at times.

If someone tells you they have never had algae, then they are lying.

It's one of the reasons I have run so many experiments on my tank over many years. Searching for that perfect balance. Every time I think I have it something else comes up and the process begins again.

One of the hardest parts of this hobby is patience.

I'd stick with what you are doing and try to keep the tank as stable as you can. Plants will grow fine at lower light levels just with different form and color.

Once the tank matures a bit SLOWLY turn up the light if you want to. Give the plants some time to adjust and see how they react. That is really the only way to find out.

 

[JayP]

I've been around a pretty long time and it's the first time I have heard anyone say that as well.

Most all new tanks go through some algae phase. It actually gets better as the tank matures.

And here's a little secret for you. Even the best mature tanks you see deal with algae at some point. A perfectly balanced tank is a nice goal but I know of very few. Even the best trim off old growth with some algae on it at times.

If someone tells you they have never had algae, then they are lying.

It's one of the reasons I have run so many experiments on my tank over many years. Searching for that perfect balance. Every time I think I have it something else comes up and the process begins again.

One of the hardest parts of this hobby is patience.

I'd stick with what you are doing and try to keep the tank as stable as you can. Plants will grow fine at lower light levels just with different form and color.

Once the tank matures a bit SLOWLY turn up the light if you want to. Give the plants some time to adjust and see how they react. That is really the only way to find out.

 

[Beza]

Who exactly has told you that other types of algae in quantity (as opposed to so small you have to press your face to the glass to see it) is normal and to be expected? I would be interested in seeing how their tanks look.

At any rate, if you are getting enough algae at this stage to notice it... yeah that's not going to improve over time. That's going to get worse. Again a full tank shot and the ppfd at substrate will help a lot in diagnosing it. It seems you are reluctant to share that though so I wish you luck.

First of all, I do not have algae in great quantities, you do have to look closely to see them. Fingers crossed that this is as bad as it gets, and improves from here on out. Which is also why I did not ask for help with any algae problem, as I do not feel I have one yet, I only wanted input about a potential increase in lighting.

The only bit which is somewhat noticeable is the dusting on the front pane, very likely due to the daylight influence. I've done my share of reading on other forums too, especially on flowgrow, and there some (pretty experienced) people actually suggest to leave those algae alone, until they get replaced by a near invisible biofilm. Which in turn would lead to a stage where you don't have to clean the front pane at all. Let's say I am testing that idea

There is also a strong consensus in that forum that at least some algae are common until a tank matures. I have seen examples where people had extreme algae infestations but eventually managed to stabilize conditions to a point where the tank looks really good. Therefor I do believe that even with a lot of visible algae (which I do not have currently) things are not lost. So your point about having any algae (but diatoms) meaning it can only get worse goes against just about anything I have read so far.

And here's a little secret for you. Even the best mature tanks you see deal with algae at some point. A perfectly balanced tank is a nice goal but I know of very few. Even the best trim off old growth with some algae on it at times.

Cheers, that is quite helpful to know that even in those perfect looking tanks algae are not impossible. Right now I am following the idea that keeping the tank clean will help suppress the algae, which is why I remove some snail 'output', any visible algae spots and the odd molten leaf about daily. I do dose ferts in return, while keeping the overall fert level on the low end. But then I am only removing about 4l (or about one gallon) each daily clean up, which is about 10%. I will do a 50% change soon again, to try and keep things as stable as possible overall.

I have thought about making a journal here, only I have the feeling that the style of setup I am running is rather different from what the majority here does - like the concept of running only 15 mg/l CO2 seems to be fairly alien. Maybe I'll start one in a couple weeks.

 

[GreggZ]

Who exactly has told you that other types of algae in quantity (as opposed to so small you have to press your face to the glass to see it) is normal and to be expected? I would be interested in seeing how their tanks look.

Most everyone I know in the hobby (and that is a LOT of people) battles some type of algae from time to time. I've seen the best in the world have battles, it happens. And I mean some really, really good plant growers.

They key is how you respond. Many people take a whack-a-mole approach, changing lots of parameters all at once. That can create instability and it's own issues. IMO a better approach is to change one parameter at a time.....slowly....and carefully observe and listen to the plants. Also getting back to basics. Uber clean conditions, good horticulture, regular water changes, stable nutrients levels, good CO2 levels, etc.

Here's my tank where I occasionally battle algae. My point is that a tank with absolutely no algae at anytime is a lofty goal and an unrealistic expectation. It will happen. Especially in a new immature tank. But with experience it can be minimized and corrected if it creeps up.

 

[Minorhero]

First of all, I do not have algae in great quantities, you do have to look closely to see them. Fingers crossed that this is as bad as it gets, and improves from here on out. Which is also why I did not ask for help with any algae problem, as I do not feel I have one yet, I only wanted input about a potential increase in lighting.

The only bit which is somewhat noticeable is the dusting on the front pane, very likely due to the daylight influence. I've done my share of reading on other forums too, especially on flowgrow, and there some (pretty experienced) people actually suggest to leave those algae alone, until they get replaced by a near invisible biofilm. Which in turn would lead to a stage where you don't have to clean the front pane at all. Let's say I am testing that idea

There is also a strong consensus in that forum that at least some algae are common until a tank matures. I have seen examples where people had extreme algae infestations but eventually managed to stabilize conditions to a point where the tank looks really good. Therefor I do believe that even with a lot of visible algae (which I do not have currently) things are not lost. So your point about having any algae (but diatoms) meaning it can only get worse goes against just about anything I have read so far.



Cheers, that is quite helpful to know that even in those perfect looking tanks algae are not impossible. Right now I am following the idea that keeping the tank clean will help suppress the algae, which is why I remove some snail 'output', any visible algae spots and the odd molten leaf about daily. I do dose ferts in return, while keeping the overall fert level on the low end. But then I am only removing about 4l (or about one gallon) each daily clean up, which is about 10%. I will do a 50% change soon again, to try and keep things as stable as possible overall.

I have thought about making a journal here, only I have the feeling that the style of setup I am running is rather different from what the majority here does - like the concept of running only 15 mg/l CO2 seems to be fairly alien. Maybe I'll start one in a couple weeks.

I guess without data or pictures its hard for anyone helping you to tell what is going on.

Most everyone I know in the hobby (and that is a LOT of people) battles some type of algae from time to time. I've seen the best in the world have battles, it happens. And I mean some really, really good plant growers.

They key is how you respond. Many people take a whack-a-mole approach, changing lots of parameters all at once. That can create instability and it's own issues. IMO a better approach is to change one parameter at a time.....slowly....and carefully observe and listen to the plants. Also getting back to basics. Uber clean conditions, good horticulture, regular water changes, stable nutrients levels, good CO2 levels, etc.

Here's my tank where I occasionally battle algae. My point is that a tank with absolutely no algae at anytime is a lofty goal and an unrealistic expectation. It will happen. Especially in a new immature tank. But with experience it can be minimized and corrected if it creeps up.

View attachment 17052

Agreed, only the hypothetically perfect tank could be actually algae free. No one over any significant course of a tanks life is completely algae free. But new tanks typically don't have much in the way of algae. My issue was that the OP was describing multiple types of algae in a 3 week old tank. I was trying to help them with that but they are not interested in figuring out the cause because they believe having that algae is normal. /shrug can't do more.

 

[GreggZ]

I have thought about making a journal here, only I have the feeling that the style of setup I am running is rather different from what the majority here does - like the concept of running only 15 mg/l CO2 seems to be fairly alien. Maybe I'll start one in a couple weeks.

I would encourage you to start a journal. It's a great way to interact with the community, and I am sure many would be interested to learn more about the tank you are getting started.

While there are lots of stem focused people here, there are also many who completely different styles. Personally I enjoy seeing something different, and who knows there may be something to be learned there.

 

[Kwyet]

There are actually several people that have or had Middle Energy tanks. There are a few threads about it. As for “different”, I’m sure we would all love to see that.

 

[BranchScape]

I would say my two tanks fall in closest to the middle energy tank/scape, as do a few others. But one lesson from here and other sources is that high light and low CO2 is a problem but the reverse is never an issue (within reason, not talking absurd things like 100ppm CO2). My newest tank is maybe 60-80 par at substrate my other is 30 in the area that aren't shaded. But I have my C02 aimed at about 30ppm-40ppm.