Cannot figure this out!

[GreggZ]

There are some broad generalizations in those conclusions such as "plant x likes lower micros" Ive mad the same mistakes more times than I can count, and it just doesnt work like that in the middle of several different changes

For one thing you'd have to be starting from a place where these plants were doing well already. A control if you will. Where say kochi was doing good, the only change you made (or made recently) was the micro adjustment. Then their reaction would have a certain value.

But even then, and pay attention right here; plants can balk at any sudden change. Finicky stems like rotalas, pantanal, even some limno; if there a big change what happens is the current growth stunts and new side stems form. What this is is the plant re-wiring itself for the new conditions. The current growth that stunted was "wired" for the previous parameters. The plant gives up on that and makes new growth that is "wired" for the new parameters. It doesnt mean the change is bad, its the plant adapting to something different. Dennis touches on this for people switching from rich to his lean method. Initially things may stunt while the plant adapts.

You can think of it similar to going from emersed to submerged growth. Those emersed leaves dont continue and simply change into nice submerged ones. They die off and new growth comes in. Same principal.

Youve had a lot of changes going recently. So you cant make these ultimate assumptions based on a plant's latest reaction. Ive given you the shotgun approach for the proven method that grows your plants well in sand. It may not work the first week or two. It may not work for the current existing growth, for reasons mentioned above. But it will work on future growth cycles 100%

Some of those plants are not going to do well in sand except under ideal circumstances. Primarily the Xyris and the Syns. At the very least there'll be a transition period. The best thing you can do esp in the beginning is lard on the macros. You havent been doing this. In fact some of these changes have come on top of macro deficiencies. That is still a main issue for you now I believe. Here's why I say this

All those stauros sucking. Thats almost certainly low macros, specifically and most likely low PO4. Now PO4 may not be low in the water right now, but it was/is low in their system already. And remember the existing growth on these sucky plants wont necessarily just get right. Often they'll get worse as the plant abandons that growth to make new growth

Another reason I think macros are still too low is pedicelata doing "ok". If its doing "OK" in inert sub, there's a 100% chance there's not enough macros in the water for many many other plants. And remember now that you have sand, the water is the only place they can get nutrients, and there has to be plenty

What I would do is trim off all the bad growth, stunted tops, all that. The plants are trying to make new adapted growth anyway. They are not trying to fix this growth, and getting it out of the way will expedite the whole process.

Then dose macros and micros just like I told you. That works for these plants in sand, trust me. Then be patient and dont change anything. Make sure to do excellent maintenance and cleaning. In two months whatever plants are going to survive these big transitions will be thriving. Whatever doesnt make it, wont. And its nothing to do with whether last weeks dosing was a good thing or not

Nothing to add just wanted to say that is some serious planted tank wisdom right there!

Really it was the hobby reluctantly realizing two things at once; csm-b is a shitty product for our aquariums, worse if your ph is 7+, and also that the standard EI dose of .5 ppm Fe 3x is way too much

Joe actually at one time many sites were listing CSM+B at 5 ppm weekly.

Then around the time of the microtox wars Rotalabutterfly agreed to lower it to 1.5 to 2 ppm weekly. I remember it was a struggle with a lot of people chiming in and arguing.

Wasn't until you started with the custom micros that it gradually kept getting lowered down to what is more common today. I credit you for a lot of that change and it has benefited the hobby greatly over the years.

 

[Hanuman]

CO2 injected through an inline diffuser. Don't know how much pH drop I'm getting but look at the video of the bubble counter. I think I should have a decent amount of carbon in the water

Not saying this is your problem but the number of bubbles mean absolutly nothing. You could have a leak (that piece of paper on the threads of your bubble counter -- no bueno), you could have a lot of degasing going on due to high surface agitation, you could have high temps etc etc making your CO2 concentration playing yoyo all day long. So before you continue going down the fert rabbit hole I would suggest you make sure your CO2 is ok. Check all lines. Use soapy water or Snoop Liquid Leak Detector to make sure you don't have any leaks. If all is good then go ahead and measure the PH drop for several days. This way you will be able to elliminate this as an issue. I am not sure what's going on in Long Beach California, but I can tell you that here in Thailand when summer comes I see the consequence of CO2 being poorly dissolved. I usually increase the CO2 flow for a few months until temps come down.

Now you are also using an intert subtrate which makes things much more prone to problems if you are not on top of your ferts regime. It is WAY more critical than when you are using a rich substrate, so that's that. @Burr740 has you covered on that side.

You want to see bubbles, look at this:

Now look at the size of the tube and the size of the bubbles. Those aren't bubble counter sized bubbles if you know what I mean. That right there was giving me around 1.2-1.5PH drop on a 160L tank depending on the season and that reactor is highly efficient. Local aqua people coming to my place were in shock thinking my fish would die instantly. None of that shenanigans happened. Anyhow enough rumbling. Before saying your CO2 is fine, check it. A PH drop is the best proxy we have so far, bubbles not so much.

If you have not read this yet, do so: Article - Dialing in the CO2 Injection Rate and CO2 Profiles
Article written by my partner in crime @Zeus.

 

[Burr740]

Really good stuff @Hanuman . I think Ive said it eariler itt, its always implied but sometimes it may get lost in the shuffle, esp with experienced people I know like Omid, but any fert stuff I ever share comes with the caveat and assumption that co2 is dialed in. Because if co2 is poor or inconsistent everything else becomes an endless unwinnable game of whack-a-mole. This changed that and it was good but now this other is...and on and on it will go

So Im glad this was re-emphasized with quality advice and touching on some of the finer points too that can even trip veterans up if were all not careful

 

[OmidNiav]

@Hanuman @Burr740 I checked the pH drop after the first post and I'm getting about 1.1-1.2. the main reason I'm looking at all this from a ferts lens is that I switched to an inert substrate from aquasoil. I don't anticipate going back to aquasoil for any of my main tanks so I had to re-learn dosing considering that the safety net of aquasoil is now gone. Principles are still the same but I'm being more critical due to the change.

Having said all that, my long term goal is to dial things in, allow things to go for some months, and then very slowly decrease everything to 50%. Reason: less maintenance as life is getting busier and busier.

Thanks for chiming in guys

Omid

 

[Hanuman]

If CO2 is out of the way then to me the next thing is macros considering the extensiveness of your issues. In my opinion, your substrate depth could potentially be contributing to the overall problem although it is not the source. Contrary to rich substrates which have a more sperical shape and allow better water flow, sand will have sharper edges and depending the size of the granules, it will tend to compact much more easily. This in time prevents proper oxygenation and access to nutrients to the root system. You would need to look at your plants root development.

In my opinion a shallower substrate would probably be more beneficial. Considering the susbtrate is inert, there is no real point in making it that deep. You want nutrients to be accessible easily both from roots and leaves.

Other than that, my first move regarding macros would be as Matthew once said on the big screen: "pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers in this racket".

 

[OmidNiav]

If CO2 is out of the way then to me the next thing is macros considering the extensiveness of your issues. In my opinion, your substrate depth could potentially be contributing to the overall problem although it is not the source. Contrary to rich substrates which have a more sperical shape and allow better water flow, sand will have sharper edges and depending the size of the granules, it will tend to compact much more easily. This in time prevents proper oxygenation and access to nutrients to the root system. You would need to look at your plants root development.

In my opinion a shallower substrate would probably be more beneficial. Considering the susbtrate is inert, there is no real point in making it that deep. You want nutrients to be accessible easily both from roots and leaves.

Other than that, my first move regarding macros would be as Matthew once said on the big screen: "pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers in this racket".

I had discussed substrate depth with other hobbyists (with mixed answers) and personally think that the depth could play a part when it comes to root oxygenation and also pick up of nutrients BUT even some species with miserable stem/leaf growth have long white roots.

I have thought about removing some of the substrate but that would introduce another major change and would undermine my observations. Now in the meantime, I can move some of the struggling species to the front area of the tank where the substrate is about 3 inches (~7.5cm) deep.

My conclusion is that all the plants I transferred from my aquasoil tanks went/are still going through a major transition. Different species take different amount of time to adjust and recover from the big hit. So my solution after changing the macro dosing schedule and increasing the amount of micros is to simply wait and let things present over time.

Omid